Creative Chats With Guest Arto Vaun (Finding Optimism and Creative Opportunity in Grief and Anxiety)

This is a recording from a series for the podcast at the Mosesian Center for the Arts called Creative Chats. This conversation was with Arto Vaun, Executive Director at Project Save Photograph Archive, musician, and poet. The topic revolved around finding optimism and creative opportunity in life's hardest moments.

Find out more about Arto and Project Save at projectsave.org
Find Arto the musician at artovaun.com

Listen to my first podcast conversation with Arto here

Transcript

Matt: 0:07

Hi there, welcome to the Little Local Conversations podcast. I'm your host, Matt Hanna. Every episode I have a conversation with someone in Watertown to discover the people, places, stories, and ideas of Watertown. This episode is a special Creative Chats episode that was a live event at the Mosesian Center for the Arts back in June. And it was the last one of this first season, which I think went really well. So if you want to listen back to all the ones that happened, there's five other ones other than this conversation you can listen back to. And you can keep an eye out for future ones, hopefully starting up again in the fall.

Matt: 0:40

If you have any thoughts on this series, send me a message at matt at littlelocalconversations.com. But let's get into today's conversation, which was with Arto Vaun, who is the executive director of Project Save Photograph Archive here in Watertown, a musician and a poet. And we get into a really good conversation about the opportunity and having optimism in the face of grief and anxiety and how that overlaps with your creative practice. So give a listen. Hope you enjoy. Yeah, I'd like to introduce Arto Vaun and I'll let you give, you know, a little one to two minute, who are you, before we get into your topic.

Arto: 1:16

I thought you were going to say go for one to two hours, but okay I’ll try to keep it to one to two minutes. Thanks a lot, Matt. Yeah, my name is Arto Vaun. I am the executive director of Project Save Photograph Archive. We are the largest and oldest archive of photographs of the Armenian global experience, and we just turned 50, so there's been a lot going on. We're now located at 600 Pleasant Street in Watertown, which is next to the old Russo’s, if you remember where Russo's used to be, it's next to there. So you guys are all welcome. We have a gallery there. We do a lot of events now. So it finally has a place to engage with the public with this priceless archive. We're growing. We're doing a lot of new initiatives. Other than that, that's my day job, I'm a musician and a poet. And, yeah, happy to be here. And we had had a chat once before Matt came to Project Save and so appreciate being here.

Matt: 2:08

Yeah, thanks, it's a great space. You should check out that space too. Done a nice job with that space. And if you were here earlier, the music I was playing was some of his most recent albums, so you heard some of his music. Cool, so you brought in a topic that we haven't really delved into in this series yet. So I'm interested to get into it and how it's kind of affecting you and how you're dealing with it. So do you want to phrase your topic before we?

Arto: 2:30

Sure, yeah, I thought you know what better first thing in the morning than to talk about grief and anxiety? 

Matt: 2:38

Sip your coffee, folks. 

Arto: 2:39

Yup, I timed it. I timed it with like a perfect beach day too, so it's good. When Matt asked me to do one of these, I was very happy to do it. I think it was like two months ago or something like that, we had first talked about it. And things were a little stressful then anyway, but they're full tilt now. Yeah, and the reason it's this particular topic has been on my mind is twofold. One is I had given a talk in April at the Watertown Public Library as part of their Democracy Talks series, in which it was an opportunity to talk about Project Save. But it was more using Project Save as an example of the difficulties now that organizations, cultural organizations, are facing, with all the cuts and general attitudes and all that stuff. So it was a real opportunity to talk about the anxiety, the stress, and the grief that comes with working in the nonprofit sector these days. At the same time, in my personal life I've been my mom's caregiver for a while now. But ever since Christmas, it's quite acute and that's new territory for me.

Arto: 3:50

So, yeah, when we talked about it. I just told Matt, I was like look, this is really the main thing that's on my mind right now. So if that's cool, maybe that's something we can talk about. Because it seems like wherever I go, wherever I talk to, people are feeling a little off. So I thought maybe this is an opportunity to talk about that. It's acute right now, but it is something I've dealt with off and on for I feel like almost my whole life. So yeah I thought it might be something that's worth putting out there.

Matt: 4:18

Yeah, and when you were phrasing it to me too, you were saying how it interacts with the creative practice too.

Arto: 4:25

Yes, that's the much deeper, yeah, that's the much deeper complex question.

Matt: 4:30

Yeah, so do you want to talk about, like has it changed your creative practice? Has your creative practice been kind of this haven for you? Like what has that interaction between those two parties been?

Arto: 4:41

Yeah, I think that one of the things, I was thinking about this week, it's I think there's a lot of opportunity in grief and anxiety, you know. So one of the reasons I thought maybe it's worth talking about. Because there's obviously not much to say about it if we just say that yeah, it sucks, and more people than we usually know are dealing with it. Once you talk about it, you realize whoa, people, oftentimes a lot of people, are dealing with, whether it's anxiety, grief, depression, some combo, whatever it is, or just the daily stress of how the world has changed quite drastically in the last, let's say, five to 10 years. If you're an artistic person, for me at least, that's been one of the big where they intersect. So for me there's a little different factors.

Arto: 5:28

I was the first one born in the States, so I come from an immigrant family, Armenian family, and there's a lot of artistic people in my family. But they came at a time when, you know, working class people, and mostly women, they weren't able to continue their art. You know, my mom's a poet and a writer and a journalist. She did all this stuff. And then when she came here, you know, it just, life takes over and you're trying to make your way in the world and a whole new country, new language, all that stuff. So they just throw themselves into their day jobs just surviving. My aunt's an opera singer. So there's kind of like, they're kind of like, I don't want to say tragic characters, but there is a certain tragedy to it. You know, people, that it's like their lives are like truncated. There's a big formative part of their lives and then they get here when they're like in their late teens, just when they're about to become who they are, and then basically just poof. You know, these things that they cared so much about they have to put aside because they're making their way in a new world and family and all that and it's a different time and they're not encouraged to, all that stuff.

Arto: 6:36

So I was kind of raised with this idea, that probably is in a lot of working class families anyway, you're not going to make money as an artist. Or you know, you got to be realistic and all that stuff. So there's that. There's the cultural stuff. I didn't learn English until the first grade. That's a blessing now in retrospect because it made me trilingual and whatever. But when you're growing up and you're born here, it's a little schizophrenic, you know. So that. And then as I got a little older, I lost my dad when I was 19. And then that just kind of set off this wave of just we lost a number of people in our family, kind of tragically over like a decade or so. So that's informed greatly.

Arto: 7:20

Like how do you take all that, as so many people have, so many different things that they're dealing with, and how do you somehow let it inform your art rather than hinder it? Because in my case that's what I had. I would look around and be like, yeah, I guess you just give up, because that's kind of what I saw around me. Like what are the things you can dig into yourself and find to combat that? Because that's really easy, you know, and that's something I've been noticing lately. I've been noticing a lot of people, even if they're joking, but there's always a kernel of truth, you know, people just feel a little bit like, you know, eff it a little bit. It seems like people just are tired and overwhelmed with whatever it might be, and it's kind of easy to just retreat into a kind of paralysis, you know.

Matt: 8:05

Yeah. So then, how did you, seeing all these examples of having those truncated lives, as you were saying, and not being able to express themselves, what did you do differently to take the grief that you were dealing with and express it in your way, like how did you overcome the examples you were seeing?

Arto: 8:23

Yeah, so it turns out I'm a little crazy, yeah. Yeah, I mean I'm an only child and again, I'm the first one born here. So I didn't have any, it's not like I had first cousins who I could be like, oh, but you know, he did it, she did it this way or whatever. I've always credited this to my grandma and maybe my dad. I think if you're lucky, there might be just this innate thing that you don't know that you have. I mean, normally we call it like rebellion or whatever, you know. But in my case I don't know if it was that exactly. I mean, I was a good kid overall. I was a punk and I did my things. But I was like a good kid and did good in school and respected my parents and all that. But as soon as my dad died, I just left. I mean, I packed my car, I just drove away. I moved to LA, a place I didn't even like. And then over the years, when I look back, I'm like, oh, there's a weird pattern. Then I moved to Scotland. Never been to Scotland. Then I moved to Germany. And I just did. I'm not even sure looking back how I did, but I just did. So I'm lucky in that way.

Arto: 9:25

I don't know where it comes from, but I was raised to kind of be, you know, there's a certain immigrant culture. Well, maybe in all different cultures, but in immigrant culture, there's definitely a little bit of a mama's boy type. You know, boys are raised kind of like they're the little princes of the house and they stick around until they get married and then, you know, they're very close to their mothers and all this. And for whatever reason, I didn't. I love my mom, but I was never that. So I think when, if something kind of really traumatic happens, it just kind of I don't know, some switches went off and I just took off. So I think for me that was the big thing in my life. It just set this pattern where, for whatever reason, I don't have a fear of doing something that might seem rash and maybe not even a good idea, but I just did it, you know, and looking back I'm grateful for it. So I think for me that was a big part of it. I kind of just threw myself out into the world a little bit, if that makes sense.

Matt: 10:21

Yeah, so instead of retreating backward, you were kind of moving forward as a reaction.

Arto: 10:25

Yeah, cause I kind of went from one extreme to the other. I was a very shy kid. I got along with everyone, as a lot of people you come to find out, a lot of people with anxiety or depression or panic disorder, whatever, they tend to be high functioning.They tend to be very performative, they put on a good front. So I think that was maybe my way of, I just forced the issue, you know. Because I was having like really bad panic attacks. I'd be in the emergency rooms and but I didn't know what it was. I, you know, it wasn't the kind of family where when we lost my dad, and it's not their fault, but no one sat down and said, oh, you know, maybe this kid should see a therapist, or you know. It was just kind of like, okay, this really sucks, and you know. Yeah, so it was one of those things where I just kind of innately something in me just like forced the issue of kind of shaking myself out of that weird state, I guess. I don't know. Something like that.

Matt: 11:17

Well, yeah, and so then, applying that to the topic here of creativity, so how are you specifically using the grief in your creative practice, or using the creative practice for the grief, however you want to?

Arto: 11:31

So yeah, I think it's a continuation of that same thing. I think that people are braver than they think they are. Maybe. You know, when people are gripped by stress, grief, something traumatic going on, it's like you're being bullied, you know. At least that's how it's felt to me when I look back on it, it's like you're being pushed around. And if you get into that cycle, I mean it's just like we all remember, let's say, in high school there'd always be one kid and, you know, you'd feel bad. They're always being picked on. I remember there were a couple kids, and I went to Saint Pat’s here in Watertown, and if you're a shy, sensitive kid, it's like you want to do something and you're like, oh my God. But that is how it feels, you know.

Arto: 12:12

So in terms of the creative, it was kind of the same thing. It was kind of like you know what? You got to stare it down, you know. You got to almost like coax it. First, I would run away from it, obviously, I think it's natural. It's that fight or flight, right. But if you stop and you kind of stand up to it and have some humor about it. Because that's the other thing I started doing, you know, I'd be like, oh great, you know, I'm having a panic attack. And then I would start like challenging, like great, I hope I pass out right here, right now. Like you know, I would just play little mind games with myself. And then the same with art, you know. I’m not someone who wanted to get on stage. Well, I did, but I didn't. You know, I have terrible stage fright, really, really bad stage fright. But again, when all those traumatic things happened, I was like I guess I'm getting on stage, you know, and I just did. And I would hate it but I would love it, you know. So I kind of it was a combination. Same with poetry. That's why I moved to Scotland.

Arto: 13:07

I got to, I ended up being mentored by one of my idols in the world of poetry, just because I wrote to him and I said you know, hey, how's it going? I'm working on this book and I think you're amazing. And he just suddenly wrote back and he's like, oh, can you share some poems? And I did. And he was like, can you be here in a month? And I was like, yeah, and I did.

Arto: 13:30

So I think, creatively it's a little bit about a combination of getting down to the work, which is always easier said than done. Almost like going to the gym, because obviously I'm in the gym every day. But you know, like you know, trying to take care of yourself in other ways. It's the same with art. You just got to do something. So whether that's your writing practice or music, or challenging yourself to do an open mic or whatever it might be, or to write to your you know idol and just say, hey, I think you're amazing and I do stuff too, and what do you think. It's taking the work seriously, but not taking yourself seriously, if that makes sense. And then that, at least for me, it started diffusing the kind of fossilized nature of the anxiety, and you know.

Matt: 14:16

Yeah. Two questions. One is first what's the name of that poet? In case anyone knows them.

Arto: 14:21

Happy to talk about him. Michael Schmidt. So Michael Schmidt, he is awesome. Michael Schmidt, he's somehow related to like Teddy Roosevelt or something, I don't know. Born in Mexico, but he's like kind of a waspy kind of guy. Born in Mexico because I think his grandfather was down there either with Teddy Roosevelt, I don't know, just he's a character. But he is an interesting guy.

Arto: 14:42

He left, he dropped out of, I think, Harvard and he ended up at Oxford in the 60s and then he started a little magazine and then he started a little publishing house. And now Carcanet and PN Review are the most prestigious poetry publishers, one of them, in the world. I highly recommend Lives of the Poets. It's an incredible book that he wrote. And then he has a more recent one, the Biography of the Novel. So he's an old world man of letters, you know. So he writes about literature. He's a poet himself but it's really he's kind of an old school man of letters, you know. He writes so beautifully about poetry and literature. And he ended up, I mean, I just went there to study with him. He ended up being my pub, I never thought I'd be published by Carcanet. I just thought I'll go there and just keep working at it and maybe this book will turn into something. And yeah, within two months he, yeah, I mean he changed my life. Yeah, he's an incredible person. Yeah.

Matt: 15:39

Awesome. And then the second question was can you take us through like a specific creative thing that you created, where the grief informed the practice and it was therapeutic in a way?

Arto: 15:51

Sure. Yeah, so there's the last two albums I did. So I had that first band and that was just a two piece. That was me and a drummer in the late 90s. In retrospect I'm glad it was just, it was before the White Stripes and all that, and so it was kind of like you know, it's like, oh well, there's just two people up there. And I hated it in a way, but it did force me. You know, you're up there and if something goes wrong or something, there's just a guy hitting the drums. There's not really 

Matt: 16:21

Can't blame the other guitarist. 

Arto: 16:22

No, I can't. So even though I would feel sick, I mean I hated it. But while I was up there, you probably know what that's like, once you just get up there and do it and you just see people's reactions. And as the shows got bigger and bigger, we got to play with amazing. I mean I played with like Rufus Wainwright and I don't know just a lot of people that I admire. But after that we didn't break up. It just kind of, you know, evolved. And after that I made something I thought I would never make, which is a concept album.

Arto: 16:52

I made an album called the Cynthia Sessions. And I remember when I made that, I was recording it with a really good friend of mine, Bob Logan, who's a very talented local guy, and I was thinking of all these other band names. I was like, well, I'm not going to keep using Mishima because it's not, you know. So we were talking and I was like this band name, that band name and Bob, at one point he's like Arto, can you stop? He's like your name's Arto Vaun. He's like that's a band name. He basically like a big brother, he was like stop hiding behind band names. He's like your first band. It's two people. So you're a songwriter, you're a singer songwriter, that's okay, be that. So that was one thing. That was like whoa. And then that changed that album. Cause I had, you know, very cliche, a very awful breakup situation, and that was still when I hadn't really started therapy yet, I was still trying to muscle through my own panic attacks, and so I sat down and I just made one whole record about a breakup. And then it turned out that that was really cool.

Arto: 17:53

That really turned into something. I don't know. I thought it'd be a little cheesy or cliche or whatever, but then it turned out, even though it's called the Cynthia Sessions, it really had nothing to do with her much or the breakup. You know, it was the first time in my life that thanks a little bit again to these kind of crazy adventures I'd been having to try to deal with things, but also to the therapy too. You know, we all try to do things to improve and then one day those things start paying off. You don't know when they're going to exactly start paying off. But I think with that record different things kind of just came together and then suddenly it became a really healing thing. That took a long time because we made it kind of very piecemeal. I played everything on it and, you know, just thanks to Bob and thanks to other things that happened. That was one. And then this recent one was totally different. I was still living overseas. The last place I was living in was Armenia and I moved back during COVID. I never stopped writing songs. I wasn't performing as much but I was writing. And I got back. These songs are much more.

Arto: 18:56

The Cynthia Sessions was very intimate because it was just me and Bob in like a little space and, you know, all that stuff. This is a band. It's basically recorded live more or less, and it's just a very different sense of, it's a very liberated album. I don't know how else to describe it. But there's just a kind of messiness and just kind of really inhabiting who you are. So I think for me those two are they've been good markers for me to be like wow, I mean, I love that album, I love all the records, but these two it's always good for people to have a sense of, wow, you know, where was I 10 years ago or five years ago and where am I now? Yeah, yeah. So I think those really reflect the way they were recorded, the way they were written, like everything about them, the people that were involved. They really reflect dealing with grief, anxiety in very different ways, with different outcomes basically.

Matt: 19:50

Yeah, yeah we could go into that for a bit, but I also want to make sure we hit on at the end here before I open up for questions, and this I know could be another hour-long conversation would be, how do arts and culture organizations like Project Save and, the space we’re in, the Mosesian help people with that grief and anxiety and stuff as well?

Arto: 20:10

I mean, so it's the same thing. I mean, I think it's the same thing. So I was telling Matt earlier we're very fortunate at Project Save. We're going to have a pretty big announcement soon. You know, we very unexpectedly recently got a transformational gift. And I was talking to our founder, is an incredible person, maybe she's someone that you could talk to. I mean, she's, we turned 50, she's just turned 80. And she's given her life to building this archive on like almost no budget. And so we were talking and she was just kind of stunned and you know, this is the largest gift Project Save has ever gotten.

Arto: 20:46

And I was kind of saying I was like you know, sometimes the gods kind of, maybe they look out for us and you know things might be difficult at home but this other thing works out. Or you know, there's a little balance to the universe, maybe I don't know. But Ruth, Ruth just stops, she goes, she goes, no, she goes. You did this. She goes, you did this. That's all there is to it. I was like all right. But and I'm not saying that because it's me, I'm just saying that I think it's a similar thing.

Arto: 21:12

With Project Save, when I took it over, you know, little to no funding, little to no like, just not on the radar really, even though it's such an old organization, it's one of a kind in the world. No real resources, no space, and like, somehow, before this transformational gift, I just I just did it. I was like Ruth, if I take this job, you know we're moving. We're doing this, we're doing that. We're going to do this initiative, that initiative. And we did it. You know, I don't know exactly how, but I just like I think there's something to be said for just saying out loud that you're going to do it and like announcing it, cause then you kind of have to do it, you know. So, and that's what I did, like when I took over, in the emails that would go up like blah, blah, blah, you know project save, it's amazing. And then I'd started peppering in it's like, but y'all know this isn't feasible, right, like this isn't sustainable. You know we got to do this, we got to do that. And then a few months later I'd be like artist residency, we're doing it. And it's like we didn't have a space. There's no money to do an artist residency. But I just did it. I don't know.

Arto: 22:18

I was just like who’s an amazing artist, just like with Michael Schmidt. I was like, hello, Pavel Romaniko, you're amazing, do you want to? He's like sure. So we were talking. I was like, well, maybe there's something to be said for it's just our own, and Ruth's, by the way. I mean, yeah, I guess I instigated those things, but, as I'm sure everyone here knows, if you have a founder who's given their life to something, they might not always just let an executive director just do whatever you want. That's really rare. So I think, between that and then, suddenly we out of the blue, this gift that it's not even from New England and it's not even someone Ruth has even ever heard of.

Arto: 23:00

So I think what I would say is, when it comes to the nonprofit world, as what I said at the Watertown Library, you know, I think this is a moment of great uncertainty and things will probably get worse before they get better. But I always, and maybe this is like kind of my immigrant family talking but, I think America is amazing, Just simple as that. It's cheesy, but I don't care. I think America's an amazing, amazing place. But it's because of like people. I think Boston, in particular, New England, is particularly amazing, especially having lived in many other parts of the world. And I think there's always more of us. You know it's not an us and them thing, but it kind of is. You know, and I don't mean that the them are like bad people, but right now we are living in a time when, for whatever reason, there's just misinformation, misunderstandings. I think there's rightful, coming from a working class family, I think there's rightful anger and confusion and frustration and all that stuff.

Arto: 24:00

But when it comes to the nonprofit world, I think it's an opportunity. Just like I think in the artistic, if you're an artist, your grief, your whatever it might be panic attacks, ocd, whatever people are dealing with stress, it's actually an opportunity, I think. If you approach it with humor and some humility and with stubbornness and a little bit of craziness and whatever, it's a real opportunity. I think in a nonprofit world I see this as a tremendous opportunity because there are people who are going to turn to us because they feel lost and anxious. I mean the very things we're talking about. They need somewhere to turn to and it might not be their church, maybe they're not fortunate enough to have, maybe a family they can, or whatever. I mean even friendships are not easy or whatever it might be. Nonprofit organizations, libraries, whether it's an archive, whether it's the Mosesian Center, whatever it might be, these are places that can become a real refuge for people to come together and to feel a sense of empowerment. Like, wait a minute, it's like almost like waking up a little bit. Wait, what? You know this is absurd. Everything, whatever's happening. Forget about whether it's illegal and ethical and moral and all that stuff. It's just absurd. So it's clearly not a sustainable thing that's happening. There's no way. These kinds of things are not sustainable

Arto: 25:20

So, it's like one, what do we do in the moment to either combat that, to help people who might be feeling lost, where our work can help connect people, can empower a sense of community. Can bring people together. Can remind people that, you know, when I was living, especially like in Armenia and Lebanon too, but in countries like that where there's so many problems, I would really push them to think about culture. Because, you know, obviously in those kinds of countries, it's about money, it's about the economy, it's about IT and this, and they, you know, how do we, you know. And I would, in my own way, I would just try to tell them that that is important. I get it because poverty. You know poetry doesn't pay. I totally get it.

Arto: 26:04

However, you're never going to compete with American IT. You're not going to compete. I mean, you're already super behind. So don't fall into a model where you just think by training some kids to do IT, suddenly, you know, Armenia is going to be competing with Silicon Valley. It doesn't work that way. You're already really behind. But you have something they don't have, which is thousands of years of culture.

Arto: 26:28

So that is a thing that you can cultivate. You shouldn't forget about that. You can do both things at the same time. And I think here, amazingly enough, we've definitely lost sight of that. Culture is a very powerful, powerful thing. I mean, it's something that saved me. You know it's a cliche, but I firmly believe poetry, music, those are the only really two things I've ever really cared about, that I've been obsessed with. And I wouldn't be here, I don't think, without them. And I think we forget that it really is nourishment.

Arto: 27:01

So I think in the nonprofit world, those two things are, they intersect bot. The work to say how can we in the moment, respond to this, what is basically like a government takeover and a complete gutting of our cultural infrastructure, but also it's an opportunity to re-engage with communities, to understand, to remember how important cultural production is, how important it is to understand our past.

Arto: 27:30

You know, culture gives things context, it gives things meaning and it stops us from being so atomized, which is what's happened now. It's like we're reaching this awful apex of you know. It's like for survival of the fittest, I guess. And that's on every level, goes against what it means to be a human being, basically. It's not even political, that's just kind of basic human decency. So I think, even though it's a major challenge, I think things like this, things like what you're doing and like what the city of Watertown has been doing, it's incredible where I've met so many people and there's such a sense of community and working together. So I think it's a great moment of opportunity as much as it is a challenge. But it can only be that through things like this. People coming together and talking and getting to know each other and kind of reminding each other, just on a very basic level, that we're not alone.

Matt: 28:20

Yeah, yeah. So the things that I've kind of taken away from this talk have been, turning grief into opportunity, moving forward rather than retreating, and kind of celebrating us rather than attacking them, kind of like the three things.

Arto: 28:34

Yeah, that's a really good way to put it. Yeah, because it really isn't us, and them too, like I have people, I mean we all do, I guess. I mean I have people in my family who probably voted for the guy. You know what I mean, but they're not bad people, they're not. They should have really thought about that vote. So I don't, I don't, I don't, yeah, I don't, I don't let. I don't let anybody off the hook. I mean it's, you know, we're all grown adults. You know everyone was told what was going to happen and that's what's happening. So there's that. But it's kind of pointless, though, to turn it into that. Do you know what I mean? So I always think of it as, A, you can only engage with people that have some capacity to engage with you.

Matt: 29:16

They want to be in your us.

Arto: 29:18

Yeah, well, yeah, I mean I think that the mistake that maybe people that think the way we think maybe is that, and maybe that's one of the reasons why America's, why it's so awesome here. We want to engage with everybody. We want everybody to get along and like you know, right? But I've always felt, and maybe this is the kind of crazy part, and I think that's why a lot of people are angr. And I think American liberalism, if you want to call it that, it's okay to be intolerant. I've always felt. I mean, my mom grew up under Stalin. My grandfather fought the fascists in Syria. My dad went AWOL from the Syrian army and ended up in Montreal because he didn't want to fight someone else's fight. Those are all forms of intolerance, right? My family, one side ended up in the Soviet. They got there and like wait a minute, this isn't socialism.

Arto: 30:04

So I think here there's something to be said for, like I don't need to engage with everybody. I just need to engage with most people. Because most people are just whatever, forget the politics, they're just moderate people. You know what I mean. And I think we've lost sight of that because there might be some powers out there that want us to lose sight of that, because then otherwise that's a pretty big majority of people. So when you think of it that way, I'm very optimistic. I'm like people are awesome, people are freaking great. I might personally be like a hardcore radical socialist, marxist even, very proudly, but that doesn't matter to me if someone's like a Mitt Romney Republican or something, who cares. I think there's a lot of overlap and a lot of solidarity, more than we know. We've all been kind of beaten. You know we're all tired and you start losing sight of things and you start getting cranky. And so, yeah, I think there's a lot of good out there.

Matt: 31:00

I like ending on good, but actually before we end, I always like to open up to questions. Does anyone have questions for Arto? All right, I'll walk around. 

Guest: 31:09

So given your art and your poetry and your music, would you say that your art and your music imitate life, or you think life imitated your art? 

Arto: 31:18

Oh, that's interesting. I never thought about that. Huh, I never thought about that. Well, the first thing that comes to my mind, I guess, is there have been times when people have said something about my lyrics. Or I've been taken aback sometimes by things people say about my music or my book. It's just kind of taken aback and I think in those moments I feel pretty strongly that, like, I don't do that stuff for any kind of, it's not like therapeutic. Like, I hate writing poetry, by the way. That's why I only have one book right now.

Arto: 31:51

I have like three manuscripts that I just for some reason refuse to finish or I just don't feel like they're worth whatever. It just comes very slowly, for poetry comes very, music comes easily and the poetry comes very, but I'm compelled to do them. So I don't really know. I think that I guess the short answer would be by default, they're one and the same thing. But I'm kind of old school that way. I'm a modernist in that, like a traditional modernist in that sense, where like you know, TS Eliot, or going back to Keats, just talking about the impersonality. Whatever the I is in the poem or in the song, it's not really me. I think that's important because that's part of the connection the art can make to other people. That's not always the case, obviously. That's just how I do it. Nothing I've ever done, even that, that's why I was talking about that concept record. I didn't sit down and say I'm going to get through this breakup by, or I'm going to show her whatever. I don't know. I just wrote one song and I was like whoa, that's kind of different from the kind of songs I write. And then I wrote another one and then I saw it as a concept album, if that makes sense, you know.

Arto: 32:59

Or like the book I wrote ended up being one poem. It's a book length poem, but when I was writing it I didn't think I was just giving it numbers because I wasn't titling it. But then I realized it's really the same poem. So I don't really know. I think, I think that art is something you just, it's who you are. So like for me this is a form of art. Or when you're with your friends, I embrace the kind of performative in a good way. You know what I mean. I think the playfulness in life and the kind of whimsy and weirdness and mystery and all that stuff, that's just part of everyday life and then suddenly you make a record or whatever. But I think of that as just being part of the same thing. They're both part of the same thing, if that makes sense.

Guest: 33:47

I just want to thank you for this. Hearing your story has been just amazing.

Arto: 33:52

Thank you.

Guest: 33:53

And you've been so wonderfully candid about how your own interior life has fed, both the tragedies and the accomplishments, have really fed you. A couple of things strike me. I'm not sure there's a question here, but the way you talk about it it's kind of like an unfolding. You know, there's this process that you don't necessarily have a conceptual model for that's going on. And something about, and I'm going to speak from this perspective of the Mosesian, is that you try to maintain these spaces that allow people to have that kind of unfolding. And whether they can support it by allowing you to be brave enough to stand up and actually show your work or produce your work. So hearing you has really helped me, you know, kind of articulate, what that process is for us. And the second thing I just want to talk about is, and this was very striking to me, is the power of just saying it. You know, like you, with your large gift and you know Ruth's 30 years of founding that organization and now this opportunity. And the power of just saying, okay, we're going to do this, and now we're going to have residents, and now we're going to do this, not quite knowing how it's going to happen. 

Guest: 35:17

And I know from, I've been involved in this center now for 20 years, you know, from when we first started. And I said we're going to build next year. Well, we didn't build next year, we built the year after. And being afraid that you would be lying to people because you put something out there. And sometimes it's miraculous.

Arto: 35:42

I agree. Absolutely.

Guest: 35:43

It is. We did this renovation and we'd just been closed down for COVID, and I thought in my mind and said to others, wouldn't it be great if we could actually do the renovation during COVID? And we managed to do that. And it was kind of a miracle because we would have had to shut down the whole thing. So there's a power to doing that that, I think, is very, very important for us to continue in our unfolding as individual artists and also as individual institutions, and how we continue that feeling. So this is really a long thank you for a really wonderful explication of what that process is for you and how it has continued to nourish you and feed you. 

Arto: 36:36

I appreciate that. You made me think of a story, a great example. Now I'm thinking about different examples. When I was a kid, you know, my grandma on my mom's side. You know I miss her every day and she really was like a second mom to me. She had my mom when she was like 15. So they were like sisters and they ended up living, you know, in this building over here.

Arto: 36:56

But one day in the 80s, I think it was the 80s, I don't know, but my grandmother, just one day she's like I need to go see my brother back in Aleppo in Syria. They were orphaned after the genocide and all that stuff. And so a brother she had not seen in I don't know, 40, 50 years, I don't know. Just one day she said I'm, you know, my grandpa, my uncle, my mom. They're like you don't know English, you don't know Arabic, you know so. And I was like no, grandma's going, yeah, of course she's going. So we sat down, I wrote all these letters for her. They were like hello, my name's Helen, I'm going to meet my. You know like, if this happens, give this letter. If this happens, you give this letter. Took her to Logan. She had an amazing trip. She met my uncle on my dad's side. My dad still had family in Aleppo at the time who he never got to see again because he could never go back to Syria, so that was its own thing. But she met them, took photos with them for my dad. I mean, that's just one little example. But that's why I think it really, my grandmother. I mean, do you guys know TT's? Remember TT's, where Sonia's is now, the music venue?

Arto: 38:10

One day in the dead of winter, I think it was the Rufus Wainwright show actually, it might've been. Anyway, I'm on stage and the crowd parts and this little cute, little green eyed lady, it my grandmother. I mean at the time I was just like, oh, that's grandma, that's amazing. But really when I look back on it, it's more than. I mean it's kind of what you're saying. I'm like that person was kind of a miracle. I mean that's just unreal because she never, ever gave up, ever.

Arto: 38:38

She's like oh, no, he's yeah, no, he's gonna play rock and roll, that's what he does. She didn't know. But she's like, is that what you want to do? Oh no, that's what he's doing. But it was in this. It wasn't like you know, he's the best in the world. It wasn't that kind of thing. It was just like treating it with a kind of genuine love and seriousness and playfulness, you know. So, yeah, and I think, giving it space, I think that's totally right, that these spaces, the Mosesian, Project Save, these other organizations, the library, these are places where, that's a good, really nice way to put it, where people can come and just be. And things kind of organically happen. And they might even surprise us, the people that run the organizations, we might be surprised that, wow, you know, look at that, yeah.

Guest: 39:26

This has been so wonderful this morning. Thank you so much. I'd like to go back to the beginning, a little bit of your beginning. I'm fascinated about your correspondence with Michael Schmidt and his saying get on a plane and come over here. And then, a few months later, actually publishing some of your work and being a mentor. What spark do you think he saw in you and did he ever tell you? And how did that help you move forward at what seemed like a pretty critical time in your creative life?

Arto: 40:02

So yeah, at that time I was, oh yeah, I guess, yeah, I haven't like touched on, I have another life as an academic. I was a professor and whatever. But at the time I was doing graduate work at Harvard and I hated it. But I was there because I got in. So it was kind of like my whole family was going to Harvard. It was one of those things where, you know nothing against Harvard, obviously, but great opportunity and all that stuff. It just wasn't the right fit. And it's another cliche, you know, abusive advisor and whatever, all these awful things.

Arto: 40:36

So I was at the Widener Library, I was in the Phillips reading room. It was June or July, it was a particularly hot day and I don't know, I don't know. I just had this things like I think I need to get out of here, like I think I need to leave or something. So I, oh right. The first thought was I said, you know, what am I doing? I already have a master's in creative writing from a place that I love, UMass Boston. And now, like, what am I doing here? I'm just going to reset, get back to literature. I'll do a PhD in English and I won't do it here. I'm going to get out of here. I'll go to the UK. I can't go to France or I can't. You know where can I go far away and just do something totally different? So I thought of the UK.

Arto: 41:17

I was just researching and I just saw Michael Schmidt’s in Glasgow. It's like that's where that guy is? And his email was on the University of Glasgow site. I just wrote to him. And I remember I left my stuff there and I went across the street at the time, whatever it was across the street where JP Licks is, or I don't know, one of those. I grabbed a coffee. I came back and he had responded. and I think I had said something. You know, I don't know.

Arto: 41:43

I was very heartfelt to him and I was like you know, this is what's going on. I'm writing to you from Harvard, you know. And I think one of the first things he was like oh, I hate it there, or something like that. He's like I left that place in like 69 or something like that. And he's like well, can you send me some poems? And I said, yeah, sure. So I sent him some poems and he wrote back again. He's like would you mind if we publish some of these in the PN Review. It's like the PN Review, that's like the New Yorker of Europe or whatever. I was like yeah. I was like you know, I was thinking maybe if you have time, you know we could. He's like, if you're serious, you know, be here in September. And he's like you know you'll be my assistant. Yeah, so I was also teaching with them the creative writing workshops. 

Guest: 42:30

Okay, that fills in a little bit, yeah. Because that sounded like that cliche. Oh, it sounds like that cliche whiteboard with all the equations on it. And then in the middle, here's where the miracle occurs. So that, yeah, I mean I had a harvard.edu as an adjunct for a while and I can't tell it just opens doors. Whatever you want to say about the university, it just opens doors.

Arto: 42:50

Of course. Oh yeah. Of course.

Guest: 42:53

So thank you for that. Now it kind of fills in a little bit. And what a great opportunity. And it just shows, much like Roberta said, when you put something out there, when you manifest it, not always, but sometimes it just tips the universe a little bit in your favor.

Arto: 43:09

I agree, yeah, and I think anytime you approach anything with a little bit of controlled recklessness, you know. And again, like just being yourself and putting something genuine out there, you know. It's amazing how people respond to that, because maybe we're all kind of have a thirst for that a little bit. So, yeah, thank you.

Matt: 43:34

Awesome, this has been great. I'm going to wrap this up for the podcast here. Thank you, Arto, for your thoughts and stories.

Arto: 43:39

Thank you, Matt. Thank you all so much for being here. I appreciate it.

Matt: 43:43

So that's it for my conversation with Arto. I'll put some links in the show notes for you to be able to find out more information about Project Save and Arto's own music. And if you like the podcast and you'd like to hear more episodes, you can head on over to littlelocalconversations.com. There's a button in the menu that's listen by category, and you can find all the creative chats in its own category there. And you can dig into the other episodes interviewing artists, creatives, small business owners, civic leaders, and volunteers in the city. Everyone has great stories to share. So you can find all those at littlelocalconversations.com as well. And again, if you have any thoughts on the creative chats series, please reach out to me. Let me me know, matt at littlelocalconversationscom, as I'm starting to think about what to do for the next season, starting in the fall, hopefully. And you can sign up for my newsletter that I send out once a week at the website as well, and I'll be sharing when new events are coming. So keep an eye out there. And if you like the podcast and you'd like to help support it, there is a support local conversation button in the menu on the website as well. I put a lot of time and effort into this project and I really love the impact it's having in fostering conversations across town. So if you'd like to help see this project continue, you can do so there. Greatly appreciate anything that you can pitch in.

Matt: 44:55

All right, and a few things to wrap up here. First, I want to give a big thank you to podcast sponsor Arsenal Financial, which is owned by Doug Orifice, who is a very committed Watertown community member. His financial planning business, Arsenal Financial, helps busy families, small businesses and people close to retirement. So if you're any of those things and you need help, reach out to him and his team at arsenalfinancial.com and they can help you out. I also want to give a thank you to the Watertown Cultural Council, who have given me a grant this year to help support the podcast, and I want to make sure I give them the appropriate credit, which is, this program is supported in part by a grant from the Watertown Cultural Council, a local agency, which is supported by the Mass Cultural Council, a state agency. You can find out more about them at watertownculturalcouncil.org and massculturalcouncil.org.

Matt: 45:36

I also want to give a shout out to a couple of promotional partners. First, the Watertown Business Coalition, which is a nonprofit organization here in Watertown that is bringing businesses and people together to help strengthen the community. They have a whole bunch of events coming up too. You can check them out at watertownbusinesscoalition.com and see what they have coming up. And then I also want to give a shout out to Watertown News, which is run by Charlie Breitrose, does a great job of keeping up as much as he can in the city. So check out everything there at watertownmanews.com and stay up to date with what's going on in the city. So that's it. Until next time, take care.