Creative Chats With Guest Julie Fei-Fan Balzer (Does Art Have to Have Meaning?)

This is a recording from a series for the podcast at the Mosesian Center for the Arts called Creative Chats. This conversation was with painter, printmaker, and collage artist Julie Fei-Fan Balzer. The topic revolved around meaning and identity in art. 

Find out more about Julie and her art at juliebalzer.com

Come join us for the last Creative Chats event of the season on Friday, June 20th with guest Arto Vaun!

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Little Local Conversations
• 1:00 Meet Julie Fei-Fan Balzer, Artist & Educator
• 3:10 Does Art Have to Have Meaning?
• 7:32 Identity, Perception, and Creating Art
• 13:06 Teaching Art and Self-Exploration
• 27:24 Art as Conversation and Self-Discovery
• 38:58 Closing Thoughts and Next Episode

Transcript

Matt: 0:07

Hi there, Welcome to the Little Local Conversations podcast. I'm your host, Matt Hanna. Every episode I sit down for a conversation with someone in Watertown to discover the people, places, stories, and ideas of Watertown. This episode is another special Creative Chats episode which is recorded from a live conversation at the Mosesian Center for the Arts. The guest this time was Julie Fei-Fan Balzer, who is a painter, printmaker, collage artist, teacher, and other things creative. She brought in a topic that sparked a lot of conversation, which was around does art have to have meaning? And we got into identity in art and all the branches from there. So hope you enjoy.

Matt: 0:43

And one quick note before we get in. Another Matt is mentioned in the room a couple of times. I am not a graphic designer. There was Matt Jatkola, who works for the Mosesian Center and is also an artist and musician himself, who's been at these conversations. So when they're talking about designer Matt, that is not me, that is Matt in the audience. So anyway, let's get into the conversation. It was a good one with Julie. Do you want to introduce yourself a little bit? Give like a one minute briefing of who you are. Because I know you have lots of slashes, so I want to see which slashes you want to talk about.

Julie: 1:08

Lots of slashes, like most people who are creative. So, hi, my name is Julie Fei-Fan Balzer and I grew up in Watertown. I know, I went through first grade through 12th grade here in Watertown. I lived in New York City for many years, maybe 16 or 17 years, and then came back home to Watertown, met this guy, had a baby, and now we've been here for six or seven years, something like that. And I am a painter, a printmaker, and a collage artist. I do a lot of teaching. I have lots of licensed products. You know, I find a way to make a living as an artist, which is always a magical and difficult thing. And I think, like Matt, like Matt, I think that I'm always interested in creativity and how people are creative.

Julie: 2:00

Like I know, when you came in, you said you're writing a children's books so you're only partway creative, which I would say is a lie. Because every time I sit on an airplane and I tell the person next to me, you know, that I'm an artist, they immediately say to me, I'm not creative at all. And I always say, I bet that's not true. And, sure enough, if we get to talking, there's the story about the incredible Halloween costume that they built out of cardboard boxes, or the amazing, you know, novel they're writing, or the cooking they do, you know, where they invent new recipes. So I think that we have this idea about what creativity is and it's this one thing, but I think that creativity encompasses a whole bunch of stuff. And that's a big part of what I do in my business is really trying to empower people to be creative and to tap into their creativity. 

Matt: 2:49

Thank you. Cool. So what we're going to talk about today is an interesting question, because I wonder how that affects those people who don't think they're creative, but the question that you had come up with was, does there have to be meaning in your art? Which, yeah, why has this been on your mind recently?

Julie: 3:03

So Matt asked me basically, like, what would you like to talk about in terms of creativity? And I thought let's talk about something that's a little bit controversial, difficult, you know, something that doesn't have a right answer. And so the big question I had is, you know, people are always saying for me as a visual artist, like, what's the difference between craft and art? There's art and craft, there's craft and art, you know, is it meaning? And the same thing is true, like what's the difference between the dance recital that somebody's doing and the Alvin Ailey Dance Company? What's the difference between somebody who plays in a cover band and somebody who's playing, essentially, what is a cover band in the symphony? Like which one is the real musician, right? So it again It becomes like is it meaning? Is it skill? I mean, so much in visual art nowadays isn't about skill.

Julie: 3:50

I saw an exhibit several years ago at MoMA that has stayed with me and really burned into my mind this question. It was a German artist whose name I've sadly forgotten. But what he did is he would take a camera and he would set up a shot on a tripod and then he would ask a random stranger coming by to press the shutter. So then they would press the shutter. Then he would give that photo to a person who was a sign painter, like a billboard painter, and that person would then paint the photo. And then he would sign his name, the guy who set up the photo, onto that canvas and hang it in a museum as his work. And his argument was that the art was coming up with the idea, which was how he set up the shot. But none of the physical labor was the art. And I find that interesting. And the truth is that's actually happening with a number of artists who are very famous today. David Hockney's studio, you know, all these people who have these huge studios, the Murakami Studio.

Julie: 4:47

That art is not being made by those artists. It's being conceived by them, at least partially, although they do have assistants who help them generate ideas. But to have that kind of output, you do need a team. There's just no other way to do it and frankly, that's not new. Think about the way that museums are reclassifying classical artwork as from the studio of Botticelli. Because they realize that those artists only came in to maybe touch up some faces and stuff like that. So I think there's this big question I have, which is when does it turn into art with a capital A, whether it's dance or music or film or anything, you know. And I think the conversation to be had is is it something about intention or meaning? Is that what the difference is? So, for instance, there's a paper weaving in the corner back there and I can tell you that almost any third grader can weave paper. So what makes that art and what the third grader made craft? It's an interesting question.

Matt: 5:45

It is. And do you have an answer for yourself for that question?

Julie: 5:50

First of all, I never want to denigrate anything that anybody's doing, particularly if it brings them joy, et cetera, et cetera. I would say in general, for me, I think that what we see as valuable as art, which is one particular way of looking at it, is art that has meaning. And I think this works at many levels. Not only like, if you go to Mass MoCA, I often find myself bewildered by a lot of what I'm seeing in the super contemporary art. But then somebody explains it to me and I go, oh, and it's a lot more interesting, and I get it and I see the intelligence in it. But I wouldn't have understood without the explanation, right. At a much lesser level, I could be standing at the Watertown's Arts Market with my wares and the first person who comes up will say oh, what does this mean?

Julie: 6:36

Before they're interested in buying something, they might be attracted to the aesthetic, but in order to pay the money to take it home with them, they want to be like what does it mean? And I can tell you that all of my biggest sales have come from people who, once I explain to them, oh, this is actually like an imaginary map of my walks that I take with my child by the Charles River. Then they go oh my gosh, I go there with my child. And they're more connected to the work and more interested. So I think people are seeking meaning and connection and I think that when we attach that meaning and connection to both art history and something that people can personally gravitate towards. This is about motherhood, this is about nature, this is about aging, this is about being a woman. Those kinds of things that are relatable to you in some way, that you then feel more attracted to it and value it more.

Matt: 7:26

So then the question is well, there's multiple questions, but the meaning which kind of you're almost using in the way of the story of the art, is that something that you create after the fact, that you create as you're making it, you create it before you create the artwork? Is that important to that as well, where that story enters in the process?

Julie: 7:45

So I would say, I would say, like this is using the very personal me, I don't know what it is for other artists. But I would say I think that when I've created work that has just been based on like I just want to do it, I just want to see what happens, it always feels unresolved in some way at the end. But when I create work for me that I am thinking not about what it's going to look like, but more like I want to create something that has really rough, textured feeling, because I'm interested in contrasting that with some other smooth elements and thinking about that in relationship to identity, sort of what you see versus what is, all that kind of stuff. That seems like a complicated idea, but I actually find that it gives me direction and purpose and that people really can tell. So I'll give you a quick example, which is I have a crit group that I meet with once a month. A crit group like a critique group. And it's a very eclectic group of women that I met through the Cambridge Art Association and I'm very familiar with their work because we've been meeting now for like two years. And a couple months ago this woman brought in a piece and it was substantially better than anything I've ever seen from her. Now it didn't look very different. It was similar materials, similar themes, similar ideas, but there was something about it that was magical.

Julie: 9:05

And so during the process of crit group we started to talk to her about it and as we dug down it turned out that she had recently sort of reconnected with her Jewish heritage that she had been very ashamed of and hidden for much of her life. And this was her sort of thinking about how some, it's a very abstract piece, but thinking about like how that sort of shame and those ideas had been there. And what I can tell you is because it had so much meaning in it, I feel like we sensed it, we felt it, right. And everybody in the group responded to it very differently than any of her other work. Similarly, there was a woman who paints very realistic paintings and she brought in a series of these paintings that were windows and it's like looking through the window at different views, but you see the window and you see the paintings. And again everybody in the crit group was like, wow, you need to get these somewhere, these are fantastic. And it turns out that they're paintings she had made over a series of summers at a family house that means a lot to her. And, whether she had been aware of it or not, I think she had imbued that work with some of that sentiment.

Julie: 10:06

Now all of this sounds very like, you know, kumbaya, artsy-fartsy, like mystical whatever, and I'm usually not a person like that. But I have to tell you, I believe that when you put yourself into your work whether it's music or dance or theater or visual art, that people can tell, they can sense that there's part of you in it. You know when you see a singer if they're giving your all. You know when you see a performer if it's a good day or a bad day. You can tell those things the same way that children can pick out liars. Children can pick out kind people right away, because they're just really looking at all of that body language, how you're behaving, all that kind of stuff. I do think that you can put it in your art as well.

Matt: 10:46

Yeah, so maybe that’s, the example you gave earlier of like the rock cover band versus, you know, the orchestra cover band and.

Julie: 10:54

Technically a cover band.

Matt: 10:55

Yeah, so what is it in their artistry, their storytelling, that is making that art in your mind, that example?

Julie: 11:01

So this is, I will say, I'm completely an ignoramus about music in any way, so I can't tell the difference between like an amazing violinist and like a pretty good one. Like I have no idea.

Matt: 11:09

We have someone who plays in an orchestra here, by the way. 

Julie: 11:11

Okay, okay. So this is the same way. This is the same way I feel about like wine, which is I cannot tell the difference between a $20 bottle of wine and a $200 bottle of wine. So what I would say is I think a lot of it for me is about skill, technical proficiency, right, that you have on your instrument. But also there is that magical thing that we were just talking about, which is some musicians when they play, you can't take your eyes off them. And I think, like it doesn't matter what Yo-Yo Ma is playing, I'm looking at him, I'm swept up in it. You know, I think this is similar to how it comes down to questions like if you play a Stradivarius versus like a cheap violin, does it actually sound different or is it the musician who's making the magic?

Julie: 11:56

And we have that in visual art, too, to a less expensive extent. But it's like if you're using really expensive supplies versus not very expensive supplies. And like my Instagram argument to everyone is, when you see a really experienced artist using cheap, crappy art supplies, they can do that because they have the skill to make it look good. When you're a beginner, you actually need better supplies, right. And I have to assume that that's true of a lot of things, which is, you know, I'm sure Yo-Yo Ma could make a box with three strings and a hole in it sound better than I could. And so again, I don't know. Maybe you know what musicians are thinking as they play, but I feel like when I watch someone who is swept in the music, who is enfolded in the music, who is like living the music, play, it's mind blowing, as opposed to somebody who's like looking at me, watching me staring at their music when they play. It's a different experience. 

Matt: 12:48

Yeah. Back to the visual art, more your realm then. So you talked about your experience going to the museum and being a little befuddled by the stuff until you heard the story yourself. So how do you convey those stories effectively, especially to people who might not be as open to finding out the story themselves? How do you display that, along with your art and all that type of stuff, right?

Julie: 13:06

So this is one of the most frustrating things to me about most exhibits that you go to. Like this is a beautiful exhibit here, but the labels give you almost no help, right. They tell you basically the name of the artist, the name of the piece, what it's made from essentially, and the price, which can be fine. But I want to know a little bit more, even if it's a sentence from the artist, about what they were thinking or, you know, their process, or why they picked that name or anything, cause I think context always makes it more interesting. So I have an exhibit up at the Watertown public library right now for the month of May, and one of the things that was really important to me was to label things with a lot of writing. And I joked to my husband that I put up my serial killer letter because I took some huge sheets of tar paper which is like a roofing material and I wrote out a very long statement that I hung with the art, because I was figuring it's a library, people like to read and they may not be visual art people but they may be word people and that would be an interesting entry into it. And also because, if it is a chance encounter with art that you didn't intentionally have that day, you were just looking for a book, a magazine, a quiet place to sit somewhere, air conditioned, whatever it is, how exciting to be able to not need a personal, you know, handholding through it but be able to make your way through it by reading all that stuff. I think sometimes that artists are afraid if we tell you it takes away the magic.

Julie: 14:30

I think that's not true. I think that if you're being honest and you tell what was really behind something or what you were thinking, even if it's weird or bizarre, I think it's more attractive. It's the same thing as, frankly, most people. Which is people who try to fit into the norms and try to sort of figure out what you want them to be, are probably the most boring people on earth, right. People who are weird, who are lopsided, who have, you know, whatever, they may not be your cup of tea, but there's someone out there who's attracted to that lopsidedness. And I think like that's true about art too. Which is, the more we try to hit it down the middle and please the most number of people, the less interesting it becomes. The more that we go for what truly matters to us, it means that some people won't like it. But it means that other people will love it and I think that's exciting. To show who you really are and have people find that interesting and exciting, that's got to be one of the greatest gifts.

Matt: 15:25

And then I know you teach a lot too. So how do you teach this skill to people? Because you know you can show someone this is how a line should look, or you know. This is very internal, so how do you teach that to somebody to be able to describe their meaning, describe their story?

Julie: 15:39

Oh, well, I'm so glad you asked, Matt. So this is the argument that I make all the time to people, which is you can go on YouTube and there are incredibly talented people who will teach you to do anything from, you know, drawing, painting, changing your carburetor, like whatever it is right. You can learn all that stuff. But the question is the sort of what's beyond that, right. How do you get to being able to tell people meaning and what's in your work and why you do what you do and all that kind of stuff? And I think the first thing is you have to really look at yourself. You have to really think about your real intentions. And I have this conversation with my students and my coaching clients a lot, because a lot of times I get a lot of, I'm not going to say a lie, but it maybe like a not true statement about, you know, I just want to make people happy, like that's what I want my art to do and that's why I make art. And it's always kind of like, okay, but there are lots of ways to make people happy, like why art? Why this? Why now? You know, and usually you have to just boil it down to what's the truth. Did someone make you feel inadequate and this is a way that you feel is adequate? Do you have some sort of pain that you want to show? Is there some kind of story or something you've been through that you're processing through the art? You just have to have an honest conversation with yourself about why it matters to you. That's sort of the first step, right, and it's the hardest, because being honest with yourself is probably harder than anything else.

Julie: 16:58

And then after that it's about figuring out how to explain it to other people. So, for instance, about my work, I always say my work is essentially about the clash between identity and perception. And then I get this kind of look. Okay. And then I say okay, so identity is how I see myself, right, and perception is how you see me. Those are two different people and, as always, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. And I think partially because I, I mean, this is my mother, so I'm half Chinese. And I am very white passing, I have always been.

Julie: 17:31

It is an interesting thing to live your life as, you know, a white appearing person who is not. And so I'm very interested again, like what is that perception that people have in me versus my own feelings of identity? Or, you know, I am now like a middle-aged fat lady and that is like a very particular kind of thing that people expect or view you a certain way, right. But is that how I feel? Is that who I really am? Is your perception of me different from my identity of myself? I think about it in terms of motherhood. I have a five-year-old and I know then I become, at every doctor appointment, hey mom, at every everything, hey mom, you know. Is that who I am? Am I just mom or do I feel like I'm something else?

Julie: 18:17

And everybody has that identity perception contrast. And so in my work I'm interested in exploring it through, like I mentioned, textures, or the work looks very graphic and then you get up close and it's something different or there are hidden things in it. And I don't need anybody to walk up to the work and say, hey, this is about identity versus perception. But what I do need is for them to feel from it that there is a story, that there is a thought, that there is something. And it helps me in my process as I'm like, I don't like this area, what should I do about it? And I can start to think about contrasts. I can start to think about what is it that I want to pull out, push back? Is there enough something going on for me in this identity perception dichotomy?

Matt: 19:06

Yeah, and then when you have that, you were saying, have that conversation with yourself, is there a specific like series of questions or prompts that you go through or tell people to go through?

Julie: 19:15

So what I would say is the most difficult thing about art of any kind, whether it's dance or theater or anything, is that it's not really a one-size-fits-all situation, right, and we know that. Which is everybody's creativity is different. What everybody wants is different. I mean, I think there's a laundry list of basic questions that I often ask people. I have a monthly membership called My Art Practice that's about people who are interested in working on having like a regular art practice. And I think one of the things I found there is that there are people there who it's like a hobby runner. You're never going to be a professional marathoner, you're maybe never going to run a marathon, but you want to get better at running. You buy fancy running shoes, you go out and run every single day. And I think that an art practice can be the same thing. You buy yourself the nice paints, you make art every day. It's something you enjoy. You don't plan to become a professional at it, but you're very good and you're very happy doing it as a lifelong skill, right. But how do we make that sustainable? And I think so the questions become things like what is your lifestyle? How does art fit into your lifestyle? You know, do you feel that you've changed in the last six months? Has anything happened that's been a big thing? What is a goal that you have or something you want to work towards? It's always talking about all those kinds of things because an artist statement is not like your name. You're given your name at birth and it sort of doesn't change. Maybe you change it at some point by choice, but an artist statement is a living, breathing document. And I tell most people it needs to change every six to 12 months because you change every six to 12 months. I have a client right now whose husband is going through a major illness and it has completely changed everything about her art practice. So how could she be the same artist now as she was then? I think about myself pre the birth of my son,  post the birth of my son. I think of even like moving or changing jobs or changing seasons. I feel different every day now when I wake up and it's lush and green and I don't have to put on a parka than I did, you know, three weeks ago. And that changes what you're making, who you are.

Julie: 21:11

I think one of the most important things that an artist can do is be responsive to your environment, be responsive to what's happening in your body, in your life, and all around you. I think that is the incredible, like when they say, look at the world with an artist's eyes, that's what I think it is. It's the ability to see the bricks that are white and the bricks that are red and be like that's a really interesting dichotomy. It's the ability to look at a weird piece of garbage on the floor and say look at that shape. Hear a sound, and say I want to try making that sound, but with my instrument. It's the ability to take the whole world in, synthesize it, and push it out into something that other people can digest. I mean, that's magic.

Matt: 21:58

I got one more question for you before I open up to questions from others. So you said, you know, your meaning can change as your artist statement. What about with the piece itself? Because, like for music for example, I can go back and kind of like change the way I'm performing a piece, but do you ever go back and change an artwork for a changed meaning for it, or is it kind of set in stone for you? With an individual piece how's that work?

Julie: 22:17

Okay. So here's a good example, which is, I think that the art stays the same, the visual art stays the same, right, but the way I feel about it changes. So, for instance, I wrote a book a decade ago and all the artwork for that book was due during the period in which I was getting divorced from my first husband. And so when I was making that work I was depressed. I could see in the work at the time I was like, oh, it's all like kind of sad, you know, artwork. But when I look at it now I see different things. I think I don't describe it as sad anymore. I look at it now and I say, oh, I can see that a lot of it is about like masking and, again, contrast between like how I feel versus what I'm showing, and I see a lot of it as very protective and stuff like that, which is just another take on it. So in that sense I think that again the work doesn't change, because that is, of course, I can't perform differently, but I see it differently and so I may talk about it differently. If I'm so lucky as to live until, you know, 95, I can see that I would look at the work I'm making now and have a different view on it. The same way I might look at an old photograph and have a different view on it.

Matt: 23:27

And obviously abstract versus representational art helps with that too. Cool. Well, I want to leave some time for questions for people before we split up into groups to talk ourselves. Do people have questions for Julie? Roberta's always game.

Speaker 3: 23:40

Julie, I think the way you articulated this kind of identity and kind of quest, I can't tell whether it's you were saying you know the truth is somewhere in between, or the truth may be someplace totally different between identity and perception. So it sounds like it's your quest for truth that you're after. So does that framing help you kind of get there? Because you could be across the whole spectrum. I mean you could be something very different than you, either the way you're perceived or who you think you are right now. And who you think you are now might be very different from who you think you are really. I mean you, we are all wrong about how we think we are, you know, in some way. I just found that a fascinating frame, so I'd love to hear you talk more about that.

Julie: 24:37

Okay, so I'll tell you a story actually that comes from my father. So my father used to be a management consultant. For several years in my twenties I worked for him and so I got to go to a lot of management classes, I guess you would call them that he would teach. And one of the things that he would say to people about their personal voice, meaning how you come across to other people, is he would say, you know, you can't copy somebody else's leadership style. If somebody is a flute and you are a tuba, the tuba can't play the flute music and sound the same as the flute, right. So you need to find your own way.

Julie: 25:12

But the other thing to remember is that how people perceive you is truth, to a certain extent. Which is to say, if people perceive you as cold, it doesn't matter how kind, how nice, how sweet, how caring you are, they perceive you as cold and you need to find a way to deal with that, fix it, you know. The same way that somebody might be a real jerk, but for some reason they get perceived as lovely. You know, that's good luck that they have. But so one of the things I learned from that in my twenties was that people could perceive me as intimidating, which I always found hilarious because I'm actually fairly shy and never felt that way. So what I learned, though, is when I meet new people, I need to smile like I'm mentally ill. I need to just be like constantly grinning and like very friendly looking otherwise people I don't know, maybe I have rbf, but like it's a difficult thing. And I think this is true when you think about your artwork too. If you're constantly saying my artwork's about this and people are perceiving it as something different, then guess what your artwork isn't about, what you're saying it's about. That doesn't seem fair, because you're the artist, but it is.

Julie: 26:14

Perception is reality. And I think I am, Bertie, very much sort of looking for some kind of like what is the truth? How do we look at these things? And then this is one of the reasons I'm always interested in talking to people about my work, because I want to know what do you see? What do you think is happening here? Because sometimes it's wildly different than what I think. And I find that difference fascinating, useful, constructive. I think that art should start conversations. Art can be aesthetic, art can be beautiful, art can be many, many things, but isn't art more interesting when it's at a point where it starts a conversation? Whether it's music that has us arguing across generations. Whether it's dance or theater that people are talking about because there's something going on that's unusual. Whether it's a painting that pushes at the status quo, you know. I mean, I think that the power of art is not in creating something that's beautiful, the power of art is in making you feel and making you think and making you have a reaction.

Matt: 27:17

Yeah, that kind of gets to your craft versus art earlier, like practicality versus conversation.

Speaker 4: 27:22

Hi, I'm Allison. I'm the one who's in an orchestra. I mean, this is amazing because I feel like my mind is going in so many directions with this conversation. So one of the things I think like the differences between music and visual art seems to be the time aspect. That music exists temporally, it's in time. So I'm also a speechwriter for a living, and so the similarity between my performances in an orchestra and speech writing is that you're essentially like manipulating the audience because you're using time to help them anticipate something. Whether it's a resolution of a chord, whether it's, you know, leading up to a big moment in a speech where there's the call to action. You're basically manipulating people emotionally. And so I'm curious when you talk about, you're putting meaning into your visual art, are you trying to sort of guide the recipient's experience in some way? Or are you really not thinking about the audience in that sort of direct like I'm going to manipulate you emotionally way?

Julie: 28:25

I wish I was Machiavellian enough to do that. I am probably not thinking directly about that, partially because I think it is really hard to figure out where people are going to look in a work of art. It gets a little bit hard to say. You know, and I'll give you a for instance, which is when my husband and I were first dating, we went to the MFA a lot. And we went on a tour, a curatorial tour, and this woman was talking about this impressionist painting and she was discussing how, you know, one of the lovely things about it is that it was kind of vague, right. Like is this moss? Is it a tree? You can't really tell it's floating, it's not really attached to anything.

Julie: 29:04

And she was talking a lot about how impressionism was about not having to connect all the dots for the viewer, right. She walked away and the group walked on and this very practical man looked at me and said what is she talking about? That's clearly moss. This is a road, that is moss. And I was like, okay. But that's the thing which is, he is absolute in that that's what that is, right. And she is talking about lots of other things and everybody in the group is probably somewhere else. And so I don't know, it feels really hard to me. If you know how to do it, I want to know how, because that would be so cool. But yeah, I know, I don't think I'm that clever.

Speaker 5: 29:55

Hi Julie, Thanks. This is great. It's really nice, having known you for such a long time, to see you blossoming into what you should really be doing, and it's very exciting. What you said about perception and identity also resonated for me. I started drawing as therapy when I got separated from my ex-husband and it was extremely therapeutic. And I wasn't trying to be an artist. I was just drawing and basically I was drawing what I was seeing in the natural world and in the landscape. And I still do that, but I'm more intentional about what I'm doing. And I've found it, well, so it's taken me to being an art activist as well as an artist and, you know, doing the Edible Watertown project here in Watertown and working with school kids. And through that I've learned more about who I am. So it's a kind of a circular process in a way. But I really like the way you talked about it.

Julie: 30:44

Thank you. I think that art, any kind of art, any kind of creativity, helps you find out who you are. Because you have to find out what you like, right. You have to find out like, oh, I like this kind of music. Oh, I like this kind of dance. I like these kind of shows. You know, I'm a musical person, I'm not. I like painting this way. And it seems insignificant, thinking about what you like and what you don't like, but in the long run, I think it's one of the ways that you begin to know who you are and become more confident. Think about this.

Julie: 31:13

Everybody says that as you age, one of the things that happens is you stop caring what other people think and you start being more able to talk about what you like, what you're interested in. So that must be such an important part of identity. So I think when you make art and have to make those decisions constantly, you actually become more tuned into who you are. And I think many people start art for the same reason that you did. And I think it is so therapeutic to have that meditative time when you are focused in just on, like your body, how you feel, you know what's happening with this, trying to learn something, like all those things combine.

Speaker 5: 31:52

Sort of one extension of that. I have a group of friends who I see on a pretty regular basis and we pretty much while we were growing up quote unquote raising our kids, we're doing things. We helped start the children's theater, we helped start the art center, we did this, we did that, and we never got to know each other. And so now in our old age, we went on a weekend retreat at the home of one of the people in the group. And we thought we were going to go on walks in the woods and all this stuff. We sat around the kitchen table and talked and I started sketching. And pretty soon somebody else was sketching and pretty soon someone, oh, sketch, how do you do that? Oh, well, just start. And you know it opened up conversations that we'd never had before. We learned about, you know, we've known each other for 50 years and we never knew this about the person. It was really amazing. And I've continued to have that experience now since I saw what happened in that situation.

Julie: 32:49

That's amazing. I think drawing and all that kind of stuff, writing, it all opens you up in a different way. And I wish, this is the thing I always tell people when they come and they say they can't draw, I say, listen, drawing is just like reading or writing. You went to school every day, probably for at least 12 years, and you read and you wrote. And guess what? You can read and you can write. If you had drawn every day, guess what you'd be able to do now? Draw, right. And that there are many things like that. I'm sure, you know, playing an instrument, it's like the practice, the diligence of doing it constantly. Dance, athletics, like any of this stuff. It comes from the doing. And I think there's a reason that there's art therapy. There's a reason that, you know, all of those things exist. It's because it allows you to tap into something in yourself that you didn't know was there and to have those deeper conversations. That sounds like a wonderful experience, Sally.

Matt: 33:37

So it sounds like we’ve kind of come full circle here. You bring meaning to your art and the art brings you meaning. All right, maybe last question, then we'll split out into our groups here.

Speaker 3: 33:44

I was really intrigued by what you were saying about manipulation and I'm wondering something. You know, when you talk about the art-craft dichotomy, when I think about really good graphics as opposed to art, graphics does manipulate the viewer. You're trying to get the viewer to think something very specific. So if Matt, who does our graphics and does a brilliant job, is trying to get someone when they look at that, to think a very specific thing. Wow, this is really cool. So is that a difference? You know, if you look at the whole picture of art and art creation that you're talking about today very brilliantly, thank you. Where does that fit in? Because I think there is something about the intention of where you're trying to lead people, versus I'm just wandering here and I'm going to see where I get to.

Julie: 34:40

Yeah, I mean, you can probably speak, Matt, about this better than I could, but I think that graphic design, for me, has always been about manipulating people, right. We know, for instance, that things on a diagonal make people feel more agitated. And so, whether you realize it or not, right, if you look at advertisements in magazines, for instance, things that are on an angle are meant for you to, like, lean in, pay attention, do you know what I mean, feel a little energized or pushed back by, right. And whereas things that are more horizon oriented tend to feel more organized.

Julie: 35:07

I think typography is fascinating, the way that it's like how do you force me to look at this headline as opposed to that one? How do you choose the order in which I come in? There is some of that, arguably, you could say, in visual art, where an artist maybe has an intention where you might start into their art. I think it's just much less able to be controlled, but who knows? But I think it's a really interesting question. I don't know if you want to talk about it from your perspective as a graphic designer.

Speaker 6: 35:36

Yeah, I'm a graphic designer but I'm also a musician and an artist myself. So, Roberta is kind of spot on, I feel like there's a lot of, and you're spot on too. I feel like there's a lot of manipulation that's happening. Like when you go in with the intention of, okay, we have to get this person interested in this event or this product or whatever. That's your intention. What Roberta was saying about sort of meandering in my art practice, I find that like more satisfying a lot of times. But it's just like kind of like different muscles you're flexing. So there's like the very pointed, intentional we have a job to do here, and then there's this like kind of self-exploration thing. So it just boils down to intention. For me I don't think one outweighs the other, one's superior than the other or anything like that. It's just kind of different ways of approaching composition.

Speaker 4: 36:28

I think for me the most profound musical moments I've had in terms of like listening to music are when I know I'm feeling something, because I'm like, oh, that composer specifically did that. They really like used that particular chord progression because neurobiologically that's what is going to like affect my brain and my heart. So in that regard, like the structure is the manipulation. And, like you said, like the sort of meandering emotionally, for me as a performer, both of those have to be happening at the same time, the creativity, the emotion, the feeling. But also knowing that the way music works is like literally affecting your brain in some particular way because of the structure of it, so.

Julie: 37:04

You know that's, so I worked in the theater for many years, which is why I lived in New York before I became a visual artist. And one of the things is I spent a long time at Shakespeare and Company out in Lenox Mass, and there's two things that I thought were really interesting about that, which is one they said opera singers make the best cold readers of Shakespeare because they treat it like music. They very much pay attention to like how the lines are written. And they, also one of the things, the philosophies that they tout out at Shakespeare and Company, is that the way that Shakespeare is written is how you're supposed to read it. Now, that sounds obvious, but it's not.  So for instance, you know, there's two lines right, tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. And then there's a new line, creeps in this petty pace from day to day, right. And so most people read it as a single sentence, tomorrow and tomorrow, tomorrow, creeps, you know, et cetera. But because of the line break, you're actually supposed to begin with renewed energy on the word creeps.

Julie: 37:53

It sounds silly, but it totally changes the meaning if you say tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow Creeps in this petty pace, right. And like suddenly it stands out. And there's all sorts of rules in Shakespeare about where a comma means something different, then a colon means something different. And because Shakespeare has gone through a cleansing, if you read the Penguin Classics version, the punctuation has all been fixed, the capitalization has all been fixed, the stanzas have been fixed to be more regular. As opposed to if you look at the first folio, which is really what his intention was and how he's trying to manipulate the actor to perform it a particular way. And that makes me think so much about what you're saying about music. And now I really want to find a way to manipulate people through my artwork. 

Matt: 38:40

Today we've turned Julie to the dark side. Excellent. We're going to wrap up the podcast here, but everyone can split up into whatever groups you want afterwards and continue to talk about this for a little bit. There's more coffee and pastries back there. Please eat and drink. Thank you, Julie, for sharing your thoughts on this topic and bringing this topic in. It's been something new for this series, so appreciate it. Yeah, thank you everyone. So that's it for my conversation with Julie. I'll put a link in the show notes so you can find out more about her and her art. 

Matt: 39:11

And if you want to come join a Creative Chats yourself, the last one of the season is coming up on June 20th with Arto Vaun, who is a musician, poet, executive director of the Project Save Photograph Archive here in Watertown. Should be another great conversation. Gonna take a summer break, so this is the last one for a bit, so come out June 20th. Head on over to the website littlelocalconversations.com to find out more information. Love to see you there. And you can also head on over to littlelocalconversations.com if you want to find more episodes. You can listen to all the Creative Chats episodes, along with other special episodes and just basic interviews I do with people all around Watertown. You can sign up for the newsletter I send out once a week just to keep up to date on everything. And if you'd like to help support the podcast, to help keep these conversations going, there is a support local conversation button on the website. Appreciate it if you can help.

Matt: 39:58

All right, I want to wrap up with a few shout outs here. First one goes to Arsenal Financial, which is a podcast sponsor, and they are a financial planning business here in Watertown that is owned by Doug Orifice, who's a very committed community member. He's actually vice chair of the Watertown Cultural District, so he appreciates the arts here too. And if you want to learn a little Watertown trivia, you can listen to the Watertown Trivia Fun and Games sponsor episode I did with him to celebrate the sponsorship. That'll be in the show notes.

Matt: 40:25

And if you need help with financial planning, Arsenal Financial specializes in busy families, people close to retirement, and small business owners. So if any of those are you, you can reach out to them at arsenalfinancial.com and Doug and his team will help you out. I also want to give a thank you to the Watertown Cultural Council, who have given me a grant this year to help support the podcast, and I want to give them the appropriate thank you, which is, this program is supported in part by a grant from the Watertown Cultural Council, a local agency, which is supported by the Mass Cultural Council, a state agency. You can find out more about them at watertownculturalcouncil.org and massculturalcouncil.org. And I want to give a thanks to a couple promotional partners. First the Watertown Business Coalition, which is a nonprofit organization here in Watertown bringing businesses and people together to help strengthen the community. Find out more about them and events they have coming up at watertownbusinesscoalition.com. And also thanks to Watertown News, which is a Watertown-focused online newspaper. Great place to stay up to date with everything that's going on in Watertown. Check them out at watertownmanews.com. So that's it. Until next time, take care.